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Is Rape Okay? Ever?

by: DocJess

Tue Apr 07, 2009 at 08:15:00 AM EDT


Last week, on Olbermann, I heard Keith remark that Afghanistan had passed a law legalizing the rape of a woman by her husband. It was one of those "this just cannot be happening moments". But yeah, it's true. While the law affects Shia and not Sunnis, it's pretty clear on where women stand:

"As long as the husband is not traveling, he has the right to have sexual intercourse with his wife every fourth night," Article 132 of the law says. "Unless the wife is ill or has any kind of illness that intercourse could aggravate, the wife is bound to give a positive response to the sexual desires of her husband."

President Obama was very clear in his comments about his feeling about this law: "I think this law is abhorrent." 

Personally, I agree with the President, although I'm not convinced "abhorrent" is a strong enough term. There is not a term strong enough, in my mind, to codify the violation of a human being.

Still, this whole situation raises a number of very interesting points. "Conventional wisdom" holds that people are religious because it gives them a moral compass and non-believers are "heathens" and "devoid of morals". As we all know, "conventional wisdom" is often wrong. 

In yesterday's USA Today, there was an op-ed (6 April, page 15A) called No religion? No problem. It discusses the fact that recent surveys indicate that the fastest growing "religious" group is "no religion at all", currently comprising about 20% of the population. Newsweek has an article this week called The End of Christian America, which details the decreasing percentage of Christians in America. Is it possible that all of us non-practicing types will rise up against religion on moral grounds? How is it that a religion codifies rape (along with preventing women from leaving their houses for any reason without permission from their husbands or fathers) while those of us who have either given up religion all together or only show up for a few things a year out of respect for elderly parents find this sort of "religion" intolerant and intolerable? Why is it that the most extreme sects of religions are the ones that are so restrictive on their members, especially their women? (It's not just the Muslims...this sort of denigration is found in many religions.)

And then there are the political ramifications. The United States, along with other NATO allies, is engaged in Afghanistan, and the clarion call is out for more troops, and more money.  None of the NATO countries condone rape; in fact, we all have laws against it. We prosecute, we jail. Should we be fighting for a country that legislates what we find abhorrent?

Yesterday, news broke that Karzai had agreed to have the law reviewed. This in the face of huge international outcry. However, the review is by the Afghan Justice Department, and could take many months, potentially taking until after the scheduled August elections.  

DocJess :: Is Rape Okay? Ever?
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How different is this from New York law? (0.00 / 0)
This post made me ponder New York State law.

Under New York law, spouses (both sexes) are required to have sex, if the partner wants it, at least once per year. (There are a few other conditions, but that's the gist.) If they refuse, it's grounds for divorce.

The New York law doesn't condone rape; the spouse can refuse, but then divorce becomes possible (New York is not a no-fault divorce state).

It's so easy under sharia law for a man to divorce his wife--is the "right" you've quoted supposed to be enforced by divorce or by rape?

Either way, the law is abhorrent: it's bound to encourage rape, whether or not it sanctions it, and it's asymmetric with respect to men and women (four months for the man and four days for the woman).

Does anyone know what sharia law actually says about this? And what the policy is in practice where it's implemented?  


There are a lot of bad laws on the books (0.00 / 0)
While they should be repealed, many are just forgotten until someone uses them to get out of a "crime". That doesn't make them right. Example: There is one in a small town in Kansas that allows you to drive on the sidewalk to run over a black person.

On the rape deal, I have mixed emotions. Not because I think the law is okay, I don't. But that is a different culture and religion. While the human rights side of me is offended, freedom of religion side has me wondering what right we have to impose our beliefs on others.

I saw several of these types of cultures in my Military travels. We were always briefed going into certain Countries about the extreme customs and laws so we could avoid certain situations. It wasn't our job to enforce American views on the other Countries, but to complete our mission allowing for their culture to exist.

I think the President's response was a correct one.


[ Parent ]
Religious Freedom (0.00 / 0)
If that law stands, and then Shia men want it to be legal here in the States, how would you feel about that? Or is religious freedom not a function of the religion, but the country in which the religion exists?  

[ Parent ]
New York (0.00 / 0)
Scott - You live in NY. I come from NY. We KNOW NY. It really isn't the same...

[ Parent ]
Keep government out of all of this (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, but I don't know Afghanistan.

My point is related to MisterEd's.

If a religion wants to say that it is part of the "duty" of a married spouse to have sexual intercourse if there are no health issues, I have no problem with that whatsoever. There needs to be a way to "opt out" without undue societal penalty, though: divorce, leaving the religion in the first place, etc.. In a society that is so dominated by one religion that there essentially isn't a way to opt out, it becomes compulsion, and that's wrong. But in a pluralistic society like ours, it wouldn't be, and in fact lots of religions practiced in the US have concepts of the duties inherent in marriage that aren't so different.

This comes back to the problems of having government decide who can get married and what are grounds for divorce. As soon as you do that, either the religious notions get enforced by the government, or the government ends up diluting the religious practices. Either is bad.

I don't want the government telling married couples they have to use birth control (China), that two people of the same sex can't get married (US), or that a woman has to have sex with her husband (Afghanistan and New York). I wouldn't want a Catholic government telling married couples they can't use birth control, either. But it's OK with me if a non-compulsory religion wants to mandate any of those things as part of what it means to be a member of that religion.

Oh, and the New York law is enforced, in the sense that it is still not uncommonly used as grounds for divorce.  


[ Parent ]
Keeping the Government out of the Bedroom (0.00 / 0)
Scott, I know what you're saying, and I don't want the government in my bedroom any more than you want it in yours.

But I think there is a huge difference between allowing divorce for no sex once in a year than things that extreme religious sects do. The ultra-orthodox Jews require sex through a sheet with a hole cut in it because women past puberty are "unclean" -- I think that's unfortunate, but not dangerous.

But when an ultra-orthodox rabbi tells a woman that she is not allowed to have an abortion even when carrying the child to term will kill her, and then she acquiesces and dies, that's criminal. (And yes, that has happened more than once IN NEW YORK.)

When in Muslim countries, a woman needs 4 witnesses to prove rape, even gang rape, and then she is stoned to death because she is no longer a virgin, that's criminal.

When the polygamist offshoot sects of Mormonism are allow for older men to "marry" young girls of 13 - that's criminal.

You know the list....I guess the thing I find different about the NY law is that it's NEW YORK -- at any point, you can walk outside (so long as you're not a prisoner)and be part of the world. People go to school and see what the world can be. In Afghanistan it's not just the law, it's that women are virtual prisoners, and may well not know any better, being locked up from birth on. "Divorce" is not a horrible thing -- I'd imagine if a couple didn't want to have sex in a year, that's probably not the issue, it's probably a symptom of many issues. And divorce is a way out of a bad marriage -- not a punishment.

The thing that bothers me relates to minimizing something serious. When I started working, "sexual harassment" meant "get on the desk and have sex with me now or you're fired." It was SERIOUS -- now, "sexual harassment" can be as innocent as "you look adorable in that hat". Nope, not joking. A member of our upper management team said that to me last winter, and was overheard by a young woman in the office. She came to my office later that day and asked if I wanted to file a complaint against him - she thought the comment was demeaning. He hadn't meant anything by it, but she'd been raised in this PC environment where the line is WAAAAY too far over.

When there is codification, either in religion or government, of something REALLY BAD it's a far cry from more minimal things.  


[ Parent ]



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